<paroneayea> =======================
<paroneayea> MEETING LOGGING STARTS!
<paroneayea> =======================
<paroneayea> wow, I didn't even have to ask for a roll call this time!  Feel
             free to keep announcing yourselves though :)               [11:02]
<paroneayea> anyway, agenda as usual is here:
             http://wiki.mediagoblin.org/Meeting#Next_Meeting
<dazrik> WoW the player is very sleek and seems to perform well, well done
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<rodney757> rodney757:  is here
<pythonsnake> I'm here, just in time :D
<paroneayea> :)
* AVRS is here
<paroneayea> so. First order of business!                               [11:03]
<paroneayea> * 0.4.0 is out! On to 0.4.1!
<paroneayea> Congrats everyone on 0.4.0! :D
<paroneayea> if, somehow you missed it, we made a big release:
             http://mediagoblin.org/news/mediagoblin-0.4.0-hall-of-the-archivist.html
<Tsyesika> how long we got until 0.4.1?                                 [11:04]
<pythonsnake> 3 months iirc
<paroneayea> it got delayed a bit, but it's out!  Everyone should give
             themselves a moment to congratulate themselves and each other :)
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<paroneayea> right, well!
<paroneayea> let me pull that up
<AVRS> jonaso: http://wiki.mediagoblin.org/Meeting#Next_Meeting
<AVRS> larjona: ^
<ShawnRisk> What is on the agenda for 0.4.1?                            [11:05]
<paroneayea> http://issues.mediagoblin.org/roadmap
<paroneayea> so, September 2, 2013
* Tsyesika marks it on her calender
<jonaso> AVRS: Thanks!
<paroneayea> ShawnRisk: it depends on what we can get in.  In many ways, we're
             kind of in "overflow of incoming features" mode.  A good problem
             to have!
<paroneayea> http://issues.mediagoblin.org/query?group=status&milestone=0.4.1
             there are some active, not closed and not in review tickets
             though                                                     [11:06]
<paroneayea> we already got the auth plugin stuff merged from rodney757
<paroneayea> well the start of it
<ShawnRisk> paroneayea: maybe a list needs to go up of what should go in 0.4.1
            before release                                              [11:07]
<paroneayea> we'll get to more of this in the OPW/GSoC stuff, but also tilly-q
             is close to having permissions stuff working, so not sure if
             that'll make it in by then.  We'll also talk about where we think
             federation will be at later
<paroneayea> ShawnRisk: well, that's more or less what
             http://issues.mediagoblin.org/query?group=status&milestone=0.4.1
             is
* StarBlessed is back
<paroneayea> but, it's not being well curated currently
<tilly-Q> *is here now*
<ShawnRisk> okay
<paroneayea> at the moment I'm kind of swamped with things to review, so I'm
             just pulling in things as they're ready and confirmed for merge
                                                                        [11:08]
<ShawnRisk> paroneayea: maybe we can do this on Thursday if you are free?
<paroneayea> ShawnRisk: good idea.
<paroneayea> remind me about that next thurs :)
<ShawnRisk> paroneayea: sure
<pythonsnake> perhaps we need more reviewers too?
<paroneayea> more reviewers is a thing, and that's on the agenda today
<paroneayea> well sort of
<paroneayea> that's the last item, and I think it's a big discussion    [11:09]
<paroneayea> so let's plan on getting to that later
<paroneayea> but the summary is:
<paroneayea> there's a lot of things flying around right now, esp between
             GSoC/OPW and also things like the configure and make stuff being
             ready for merge, and various whatevers :)
<paroneayea> so we're not at lack of interesting things that are likely to
             make it in... if we're at lack of anything, it's lack of trying
             to put a structured roadmap aside from the high priority projects
             we listed that basically became some of the summer internships
                                                                        [11:10]
<paroneayea> that's kind of the state of things
<ShawnRisk> paroneayea: well anything else on 0.4.1 that needs discussion
            today?
<paroneayea> I've covered what i wanted to say, but maybe other people have
             questions                                                  [11:11]
<paroneayea> I'll count that as no? :)
<Tsyesika> nope
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    #mediagoblin                                                        [11:12]
<paroneayea> well we've got plenty to discuss, so let's move on
* StarBlessed is just here to watch :)
<paroneayea> :)
<paroneayea> * OPW/GSoC update!
<Tsyesika> is my stuff seporate from this?
<tilly-Q> *same question*
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: someone asked for a federation update, so I figure
             you'll give a separate update if you're willing to do so
<paroneayea> or
<paroneayea> we'll consider it a separate component of this
<paroneayea> whatever, it's just an outline :)
<Tsyesika> either :P just tell me when to give the update
<paroneayea> :D
<paroneayea> so here's the summary: things are busy, everyone's working on
             their stuff, things are moving along.                      [11:13]
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<paroneayea> timeline-wise, midterm reviews are towards the end of the month I
             think; other than that, things are just churning along :)
<paroneayea> so I'm going to actually open the floor on this one.  if students
             on OPW and GSoC want to give updates and are here, I think that
             would be welcome, but I'm not going to push anyone into it
                                                                        [11:14]
<paroneayea> other than federation is already brought up :)
<paroneayea> tilly-Q: but if you'd like to give an update, here's where you
             can do it (no pressure!)                                   [11:15]
<paroneayea> although I guess I did kind of set that up like that :)
<tilly-Q> ok great
<tilly-Q> Tsyesika you want to go first, or should I get started?
<Tsyesika> you go first
<tilly-Q> k
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<tilly-Q> Basically, I've been working on permissions through a Privilege tale
<tilly-Q> *table
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<tilly-Q> that's in a many to many relationship with User
<tilly-Q> and I've also added in tables for 'Reports' so that users can report
          offensive comments or media                                   [11:17]
<tilly-Q> and by now I've finished all of the work with models
<tilly-Q> and I've made a decorator that accepts a Privilege name as an
          argument and then only allows a user to access the page if they have
          a privilege w/ that name
<rodney757> is there going to be a way to set media to private?         [11:18]
<tilly-Q> Also I had to implement a new models idea I called Foundations
          create the default Privileges ('admin', 'commenter' etc) when a new
          server is set up
<tilly-Q> hmm I hadn't thought of that yet, but sounds doable           [11:19]
<paroneayea> I think "private" is probably out of scope for this, but we can
             talk about it
<paroneayea> in some ways, I think that ties into our working with federation
             stuff, since we may want to map to some of the ways pump handles
             private sharing
<tilly-Q> but Foundations is modular so that it can work with other tables btw
<paroneayea> (also, elrond has been thinking of much more basic private
             sharing, but he's working on his PHD and is on mediagoblin
             hiatus)                                                    [11:20]
<tilly-Q> and basically now I'm working on the admin/moderator interfaces to
          track reports and users which I've made progress on
<paroneayea> tilly-Q: nice :D                                           [11:21]
<tilly-Q> I also made a UserBan table, which is in a one-to-one relationship
          w/ User
<tilly-Q> if a user has a UserBan attached to it, that user is banned from
          mediagoblin until the ban expires, and they are redirected to a
          screen that explains why they were banned                     [11:22]
<tilly-Q> so.... that's basically everything :~P
<j1mc> this sounds so cool. : )  thanks for your work.
<paroneayea> tilly-Q: great! :)
<AVRS> tilly-Q: Are they banned for writing or for reading too?
<paroneayea> yes, as I've said, I'm particularly happy that you're working
             explaining things into it
<tilly-Q> thanks y'all                                                  [11:23]
<StarBlessed> Well done tilly-Q
<tilly-Q> AVRS with the userBan they are banned from reading too
<LotusEcho> Good job :)
<ShawnRisk> sounds amazing tilly-Q
<AVRS> tilly-Q: and what about anonymous reading?
<tilly-Q> AVRS using Privileges, they can be singly banned from commenting,
          uploading, reporting etc
<tilly-Q> yeah, that's true, I didn't think it'd be the most essential that
          they were unable to read                                      [11:24]
<paroneayea> AVRS: ah, I see... anonymous reading is already the current
             state, so you're asking why a banned user is not able to see what
             a logged out user is able to?
<AVRS> tilly-Q: it's annoying when something bans a user for reading because
       of a spammer.  That may be because a bot would load the server buy
       downloading something, but I guess that's more of a mistake.
<tilly-Q> I thought it was more important that when they tried to read with
          their account, they had to hear about why they were banned
<AVRS> paroneayea: yes
<pythonsnake> reading ban is kinda hard
<AVRS> LiveJournal bans reading from Tor.                               [11:25]
<AVRS> (brb)
<paroneayea> these are good questions.  I'm going to request that we have more
             discussion with tilly-q about it after the meeting :)
<paroneayea> we have other updates to get to though
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<Tsyesika> paroneayea: want me to say some stuff about federation, i'll be
           quick                                                        [11:26]
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: want to go next?
<paroneayea> yes
<paroneayea> :)
<Tsyesika> cool
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<Tsyesika> erm well I've done client registration and i'm currently working on
           oauth stuff
<Tsyesika> i think this will be one of the hardest bits of it
<Tsyesika> i'm probably about 50% the way through oauth                 [11:27]
<Tsyesika> should have it ready for review early next week
<ShawnRisk> How is oauth stuff different to what was discussed earlier?
<Tsyesika> "earlier"... which discussion?
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: nice!  rodney757 is actually going pretty fast on his
             work, and knows the domain of auth stuff well, it might be a good
             idea if he does a pre-review before I get to it, I wonder?
                                                                        [11:28]
<paroneayea> if you two are willing to do that
<ShawnRisk> I can't remember but I think paroneayea said rodney757 was working
            on oauth stuff
<paroneayea> it might save me a bit of time so I can better handle the review
             workload
<rodney757> sure :)
<paroneayea> ShawnRisk: he's working on auth stuff, but not oauth
<paroneayea> it's a bit different here
<ShawnRisk> oh
<paroneayea> but there's overlap
<Tsyesika> yeh of course paroneayea                                     [11:29]
<paroneayea> great :)
<Tsyesika> rodney757: i'll ping you next week
<rodney757> sounds good
<Tsyesika> as for the future, i predict most i'll have most endpoints
           implemented by the end of this month (hopefully)
<paroneayea> yay!                                                       [11:30]
<Tsyesika> paroneayea: i think we discussed and came to the conclution we'd
           pull my stuff in smallish chunks?
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: yeah, I think so.
<Tsyesika> shall we think aout pulling my stuff in after oauth is done?
<paroneayea> it's working well for rodney757's stuff, which is also "large" in
             scope... we might want to do similar things for tilly-Q's
             permissions stuff too.
<paroneayea> I think so.
<Tsyesika> okay cool
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: so what about pypump?  I think people would be
             interested in hearing about that :)
<Tsyesika> okay, pypump supports virtually all pump objects now         [11:31]
<Tsyesika> it seems to work quite well, there are a few extra things i'd like
           to squeeze in and some polishing
<paroneayea> https://github.com/xray7224/PyPump (link for reference)
<Tsyesika> basically i'm at the stage where i want/need people using it and
           reporting bugs                                               [11:32]
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: we should make some announcements about that, I think.
<Tsyesika> there is quite a bit of documentation to do which i hope to get
           done asap
<paroneayea> when you get to the point you think is right, I'd like to help
             promote it through our various communication channels
<ShawnRisk> is pump = pump.io and what is the different between pump and
            pypump?
<Tsyesika> paroneayea: sounds great                                     [11:33]
<Tsyesika> ShawnRisk: pypump is a library for interacting with pump in python
<Tsyesika> and since GMG will be implementing a compatable API pypump will
           also be usable with GMG's API
<paroneayea> ShawnRisk: there's two things referenced "pump": http://pump.io/,
             the reference implementation software of the specification
<paroneayea> and the Pump API, the specification itself:
             https://github.com/e14n/pump.io/blob/master/API.md         [11:34]
<ShawnRisk> good to know
<paroneayea> (so mediagoblin won't be using pump.io, but since it's using the
             Pump API, it'll also be usable with pypump)
<paroneayea> sorry for interrupting you Tsyesika 
<paroneayea> if I did :)
<Tsyesika> no worries :)
<Tsyesika> you didn't :P                                                [11:35]
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: would it be a good time to encourage people to join the
             IRC channel who are interested?
<Tsyesika> sure sounds good, yeh most of the pypump discussion goes on in the
           pypump channel which is on MegNet
<Tsyesika> irc.megworld.co.uk #pypump
<paroneayea> :)
<Tsyesika> if you need any more info about connecting you can find it
           (https://www.megworld.co.uk/irc/)                            [11:36]
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: cool.  Anything else?  or are there questions for
             Tsyesika?
<pythonsnake> how about using oembed support for pulling stuff for federation?
              paroneayea said it would be neat
<Tsyesika> i got nothing else
<StarBlessed> One sec, i do.
<paroneayea> pythonsnake: yeah we've talked about whether or not you would
             link off to another site when clicking a thumbnail in a gallery,
             etc
<pythonsnake> like, sharing media datas between instances
<Tsyesika> pythonsnake: i'm not sure as of yet, it's certainly a possiblity
                                                                        [11:37]
<StarBlessed> Tsyesika: Pypump - may I ask what this means for the GMG end
              user?  ( in lay terms please)
<paroneayea> oembed might actually be a good way to have it be on the same
             site
<ShawnRisk> when will federation be done?
<Tsyesika> StarBlessed: it basically means when i've finished my federation
           stuff, python developers will be able to create clients really
           easily for GMG
<Tsyesika> ShawnRisk: properly finished around september time ish probably,
<StarBlessed> Tsyesika: and the integration with the pump API?
<Tsyesika> StarBlessed: how do you mean?                                [11:38]
<paroneayea> can I cover this one? :)
<Tsyesika> paroneayea: go ahead
<ShawnRisk> dazrik: are you seeing this discussion?
<StarBlessed> Well its my understanding that the API only allows movement of
              objects (data objects), how will these objects interact with GMG
<Tsyesika> i will try and aim to have it in for 0.4.2 but it's hard to predict
           :P                                                           [11:39]
<Tsyesika> no
<Tsyesika> 0.4.1
<Tsyesika> :P
<paroneayea> ah, okay, that's more specific than the answer I was going to
             make :)
<Tsyesika> paroneayea: oh
<paroneayea> StarBlessed: if you publish a media entry object though
<Tsyesika> well i use words like "try"a nd "hopefully"
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<paroneayea> StarBlessed: if you watch the video on
             http://mediagoblin.org/pages/campaign.html there's the part where
             we talk about "federation is how email works", and hooking
             together various instances.  To the end user, this should mean
             that if you're running a mediagoblin site, if you've subscribed
             to another user, you should be able to subscribe to "objects" via
             activities, add them to galleries, and inform other sites about
             them                                                       [11:40]
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<paroneayea> so, it'll be used basically for the kind of notifications between
             servers involved in coordinating that
<paroneayea> is that about right, Tsyesika ?
<StarBlessed> paroneayea; Tsyesika thank you.  :)                       [11:41]
<Tsyesika> notifications, commenting on media on other servers, etc...
<paroneayea> yeah
<paroneayea> okay, cool.  does that cover it?  we're 2/3 through the meeting,
             so I want to give LotusEcho and rodney757  a chance to talk
             before we get to the last part
<Tsyesika> yeh sure
<Tsyesika> any more questions i'll be around after the meeting          [11:42]
<LotusEcho> Mine is pretty quick :)
<paroneayea> either of you two want to go, and who wants to go first?
<paroneayea> okay, LotusEcho, you go
<rodney757> I can say something quick after LotusEcho
<LotusEcho> First: testing speed. I've modified how the database is handled in
            testing so now I've seen the test execution time cut down to 1/6th
            of its original time.
<LotusEcho> The second bit is setting up a Jenkins continuous integration
            server. I have it installed and partially configured. There are a
            lot of plugins to sort through for it.
<ShawnRisk> I have to go
<paroneayea> lata ShawnRisk 
<LotusEcho> But once it's done it should be able to pull new updates from
            gitorious, run our current test suite, and send a message in IRC
            if the tests fail.
<paroneayea> LotusEcho: horray!                                         [11:45]
<pythonsnake> awesome
<LotusEcho> I'm also working on Selenium integration into both our dev testing
            and with Jenkins
<ShawnRisk> paroneayea: let me know about the last discussion on Thursday
            please
<LotusEcho> Yes, pythonsnake will be going through this with me when we come
            to set up the jobs :)
<paroneayea> great!
<pythonsnake> I'll try to follow up :)                                  [11:46]
<paroneayea> LotusEcho: is that the crux of it then?
<paroneayea> to misuse that word crux
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<paroneayea> anything else, or questions for LotusEcho before we move on?
<LotusEcho> I'm also writing documentation as I do all of this so that anyone
            else will be able to easily set up their own GMG Jenkins server if
            they want to (for testing their branches?) I'm also writing
            Selenium testing, Unit testing, and other documentation.
<paroneayea> oops :)
<paroneayea> sorry :)
<LotusEcho> I'll be posting versions of all of those over the course of the
            summer.                                                     [11:47]
<LotusEcho> I'm also helping with ticket triage.
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<LotusEcho> And, finally, I'll be writing some tests (both unit tests and
            selenium functional tests)                                  [11:48]
<paroneayea> cool.  thanks so much LotusEcho :)
<paroneayea> any questions?  we're running low on time though           [11:49]
<paroneayea> I'll take that as no
<paroneayea> or, you'll ask lotusecho after :)
<paroneayea> rodney757: update? :)
<rodney757> So currently I've moved all of the existing auth stuff over to
            plugins
<rodney757> We also have support for openid now as well                 [11:50]
<paroneayea> in master! :)
<rodney757> Persona support is waiting for review and should land soon
<rodney757> and I'm currently working on ldap support
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    channel #mediagoblin                                                [11:51]
<rodney757> with the new plugabble authentication, it fairly easy for anyone
            to write a new auth plugin
<rodney757> and that's all that I've got :)
<paroneayea> yay!  (quick) questions for rodney757?
<StarBlessed> Great stuff rodney757 :D
<paroneayea> yeah, indeed
<paroneayea> stellar work :)                                            [11:52]
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<paroneayea> okay
<paroneayea> let's move on to the last bit then
<paroneayea> I'm not sure we really have time to cover it in detail though
<paroneayea> * Module owners (and reducing the "Chris Webber bottleneck")? 
<paroneayea> **  Projects like Blender, the Linux Kernel, and qemu have
             "module owners", people responsible for a domain of the code 
<paroneayea> **  Could/should MediaGoblin do the same? 
<paroneayea> ** How would that be broken up?                            [11:54]
<paroneayea> so, recently I've been doing a lot of review.. a lot of it!  and
             I think people seem happy with the quality of review I give, when
             I give it
<paroneayea> but there's a lot of it going on.  It might be useful if there's
             a way we can split up some of the work in mediagoblin so I'm not
             reviewing all the things in all the areas (which also reduces my
             capacity to write code... again, in a situation where you can't
             complain about the problem at hand :))                     [11:55]
<paroneayea> the problem is: asking other people to review is good, but
             reviewing is also a lot of work and takes a bunch of time.
<paroneayea> and we also have to know that someone knows an area in
             mediagoblin rather well
<Tsyesika> how would module owners being reviewers impact GMG? what happens
           when module reviewers try and pull code into master, is that
           reviewed, if so how much stuff is brought up in those reviews
                                                                        [11:56]
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: it's a tough situation, I'm not sure.
<paroneayea> maybe it needs more research before we implement this
<pythonsnake> we need trust?                                            [11:57]
<paroneayea> basically, there's at present a few people who have commit access
             in mediagoblin... I have it, so does joar and elrond and a
             smattering of other people
<Tsyesika> if you're bringing a lot of stuff up in the reviews of the "module
           owner's" code then clearly it wouldn't work
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: right
<paroneayea> it's tricky
<paroneayea> hm
<StarBlessed> While a modular approach is a nice thought, it will pay not to
              get caught up in definitions.
<paroneayea> it might be that the module owners thing is not quite the way to
             go
<paroneayea> we're not *that* big yet.                                  [11:58]
<paroneayea> maybe really the *real* problem at hand is we need more people
             who have significant experience in mediagoblin doing reviews
             generally
<Tsyesika> how much is the stuff you bring up documented in developer
           guidelines and stuff too?
<StarBlessed> I have worked on a few projects in the past.  People have a
              tendency to get caught up in defining their role, instead of
              working ht e problems.
<paroneayea> it's a tough thing though; reviewing other peoples' code can be
             hard                                                       [11:59]
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: well, when elrond and joar review things for instance,
             they tend to do a really good job of covering the most of it, and
             then when aren't sure, discuss in here
<paroneayea> it's a good workflow
<paroneayea> not to mention, *I* don't know the domain of everything
<paroneayea> there are certain parts of the video/audio stuff that I pass off
             to joar for example
<paroneayea> and for db stuff, I tend to defer to elrond                [12:00]
<Tsyesika> hmm
<StarBlessed> If you take the modular route, then you have to have blurred
              lines between the modules.  That way no one person will scream
              at crossing 'territories'.
<paroneayea> StarBlessed: right, I think if we take that route we don't want
             sharp definitions
<StarBlessed> Exactly.
<paroneayea> it might be that we don't need module owners then
<StarBlessed> I have an idea...
<rodney757> It sounds like maybe just having a couple of more reviewers with a
            similiar workflow as joar  and elrond would be helpful      [12:01]
<Tsyesika> also how long does it take a piece of code to go from the developer
           finishing it to being pulled in?
<paroneayea> rodney757: I think that's right.
<Tsyesika> i.e. how long is the review process
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: it really depends
<paroneayea> usually me reviewing some code takes between half a day and 2
             days, depending on the size of it
<paroneayea> eg, reviewing rodney757's basic auth stuff took a couple days,
             but that was a huuuge set of changes
<Tsyesika> so if i submit some code, a week later it's in master (most of the
           time)?                                                       [12:02]
<StarBlessed> What it module 1,2 and 3 are given to person A.  Then modules
              2,3 and 4 are given to person B (ad infinitum).  That way there
              is cross over, but less responsibility.
*** alonl (~alon@85-250-99-7.bb.netvision.net.il) has quit: Read error:
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<Tsyesika> presuming i do any changes you suggest
<Tsyesika> if so i don't think the problem is _too_ bad
<paroneayea> Tsyesika: it also depends on how much you pester me to get it in.
             we have kind of a squeaky wheels get more traction situation
<rodney757> well some stuff has been in the review queue for a lot longer then
            a week :)
<paroneayea> rodney757: right.
<paroneayea> there's a significant pile up right now                    [12:03]
<paroneayea> and the more that piles up, the harder it is to get through
<paroneayea> okay, here's what I'm getting from this
<paroneayea> the current workflow we have now, eg the joar and elrond review
             style, works.
<paroneayea> the problem is we don't have enough of it
<paroneayea> somehow or another, we need to recruit more reviewing then
<Tsyesika> do you have any other developers you can reach out to?       [12:04]
<pythonsnake> it's easier to get reviewers for modules than all the stuff...
<Tsyesika> and prehaps there should be a "reviewers" page which helps
           developers know which reviewer to apprach
<paroneayea> probably I should prioritize that on my agenda, yeah.
<paroneayea> right, so some loose "people who tend to know this area" type
             reviewers might be a good way                              [12:05]
<paroneayea> we could set up a wiki page, or something.  Not sure.
<paroneayea> knights of the review table or something
<rodney757> hopefully you can trust the reviewers to only review code that
            they are familiar with
<Tsyesika> I would assume there is quite a bit of time spent of a developer
           coming to say paroneayea, paroneayea finds time to look through the
           code and deduce it's db or whatever so then passes it to elrond
                                                                        [12:06]
<j1mc> i'm doing a content analysis to help reorganize things. i should be
       done with the "current state" of our docs and such today. then i'll
       move on to mapping where it would be good to organize stuff.
<Tsyesika> you could cut all that by just having a page explaining it
<rodney757> not sure if it strictly needs to be modules
<j1mc> i'll keep the "reveiwers" stuff in mind
<paroneayea> j1mc: cool
<paroneayea> alright
<paroneayea> well this meeting is short on time.  I'm prioritizing on my
             agenda thinking through recruiting more reviewers
* pythonsnake tries to sign up :D                                       [12:07]
<paroneayea> though probably not keeping the "knights of the review table"
             thing, as much as I like it... previous situations where knights
             were determined to be too gendered :)
<paroneayea> alrighty
<paroneayea> good meeting all!  thanks everyone for participating :)
* Tsyesika sits back and waits for ascii art
<paroneayea> =====================
<paroneayea> MEETING LOGGING ENDS!
<paroneayea> =====================
